"Experts" and experts are not comparable


The “invisible powers” offered to man today are not angels and demons, but obscure material forces. These are the forces that make him contented or depressed, form his character, and direct his life without him knowing it. In place of the priests of old, we have “experts” who dispense therapy and pills to relieve his depression, other experts who construct government education and welfare programs, without which obscure social forces will inevitably turn him into a criminal, and yet other experts who inspect his genetic code like tea leaves and tell him that he is doomed to be a loser anyway. Instead of confession, we have therapy; instead of the sacrament of baptism, we have the sacrament of abortion; instead of Calvinism, we have genetic determinism. Man still vegetates in his primitive stupidity…

So is the response of one David T. to a quote from a Baron d’Holbach from 1772, and one the Discovery Institute is featuring on their site at the moment. The implication is that people today are replacing one set of priests for another, an older set of invisible forces for another, and that somehow these newer things are somehow comparable, when in reality, all that’s comparable is the relative ignorance of those seeking help and the trust they place in those they seek for help. The actual help, however, is far from comparable, since the “help” of old was merely imaginary, to treat imaginary causes for real problems.

The fact that most people today are still ignorant of the things in life which affect them in no way makes the people they turn to for help with those things comparable to the people their ancestors turned to, and it’s completely ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Unlike the mythical angels and demons our ancestors were told were responsible for their conditions, today’s doctors and other experts can point to actual causes such as cholesterol, white blood cell or hormone levels and the existence of viruses, bacteria, and cancer cells. Far from “invisible”, these things can be seen and even shown to patients unlike the invisible agents priests of yesteryear claimed were responsible for this or that.

Today we may still be ignorant and dependent on others who are more learned, but “the decisive question” is hardly between “which stories you will believe”, but rather whether you’re going to believe stories or facts. Perhaps the ignorance of our ancestors was inescapable, but today, to choose the former over the latter, would be inexcusable. Ask Madeline Neumann. Oh right, we can’t.

I suggest giving both links above a read, for there are some gems of idiocy in each, like “instead of the sacrament of baptism, we have the sacrament of abortion.”

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56 Responses to “"Experts" and experts are not comparable”

  1. You actually went to the Discovery Institute's web site? Did any of your brain cells melt while you were over there?

  2. That is a very awful attempt at comparing modern sciences with outdated superstitions. I'm all for raising the bar here, I think the public is smart enough to understand reality and that they don't need myth to keep them feeling happy or accepted, etc.

  3. You know, Quiff, you make an awful lot of assumptions on matters you really haven't made a determined effort at investigating. And Chief, you are doing the same thing when you label "obscure material forces" as merely those things that you can comprehend outside of a natural and determined bias against Christianity.

    I'll let you in a little secret… those "experts" that dole out pharmaceuticals are in all reality legal drug pushers, who have hooked a gullible public on the notion that they need these drugs to survive and/or cope, when the reality is that most of them only suppress what the real active agent is in the fight against disease and stress – the immune system that God gave us.

    You, yourself, have admitted that there are invisible forces out there that determine reality for us all, BUT, somehow, when it comes down to those forces being higher life forms than you, suddenly ol' Chiefy-boy isn't so comfortable being the open-minded type he likes to purvey to his equally narrow-minded retinue.

    Nope. Man is his own gift to the universe, and that's just all there is to it, right, infidels? No proof, just an assertive "God is fiction… end of story."

    If you twits could only see how ridiculous your reasoning is!

    LOL!

  4. Maybe you all ought to start getting used to wearing Depends underwear, because, when the day comes when God reveals Himself to everyone, there are going to be a lot of loose sphincters in the infidel camp!

    Your smug faces will change to abject horror, when you realize that your inevitable fate wasn't necessary at all.

  5. Correction: FIRE-PROOF Depends underwear.

  6. "Chief, you are doing the same thing when you label "obscure material forces" as…".

    I never used such a label anywhere.

    "You, yourself, have admitted that there are invisible forces out there that determine reality for us all…".

    Nope. I never said such a thing.

    So anyway, yes, the original comment was quite ridiculous but then seeing how DI took that and ran through crazy town with it was quite entertaining. I probably am a bit dumber now from experiencing it, like watching a Jackass movie.

    I have to file this one away as another in the Why do theists want atheism called a religion folder, subsection 'Calling science a religion'. It's so strange to want to hurt something by trying to show it's just like yourself.

  7. "I never used such a label anywhere."

    "Nope. I never said such a thing."

    Sheesh! Now, not only am I a fool for believing in God, but, I'm also blind! Funny… I don't think I pulled those quotes out of my ass… you sure you're not smoking the sweetgrass in confined spaces, again, Chief? Your short-term memory seems a little off, these days!

    I don't want Atheism called a religion, that's your mantra. The only TRUE atheists are dead. They verily believe in nothing, but, you obviously do worship Mammon. Let's be clear on something, I actually arrived at that conclusion about Atheism years ago, but, for my own purposes, here, have refrained from using it in it's proper definition.

    I'll just repeat that you are a religious man, Chief, you just don't share the same beliefs as I do. And, I'm here to tell you that your belief system is flawed, and that it will cause you to lose out on something that I feel you shouldn't.

  8. Philly said, "..we may still be ignorant and dependent on others who are more learned,"

    Indeed. Difference is, atheists like yourself seem to think your own ignorance and dependency somehow more noble.

    Gideon, I agree that PhillyChief "make[s] an awful lot of assumptions on matters [he] really [hasn't] made a determined effort at investigating."

    As his most recent readily available example, I submit that when Philly says things like, "The fact that most people today are still ignorant of the things in life which affect them in no way…" he speaks equally from ignorance, superstition and illogic, for if we are ignorant of said things, from whence proceedeth the knowledge that said things don't affect us other than presupposition sans evidence which is the very definition of an irrationally reached conclusion?

    Really, Philly's appeal here is just more irrationalism, only worse off than the theist variety because Philly's variety comes in a cute little package that says "rational." I'd say it's a joke were the potential consequences not so severe.

  9. PS – I haven't heard anything intellectually stimulating out of Chaplain for two weeks now. Are you guys tiring of actual arguments?

  10. "Indeed. Difference is, atheists like yourself seem to think your own ignorance and dependency somehow more noble."

    Heh… that's a good one… wish I'd said it!

    cl, if these guys weren't so deep into arguing and just plain being jerks, they'd soon see how crazy their Darwinian programming is.

    I'll give the Chief credit for a little more objectivity than some. The jury's still out on John… he's kind of elusive. I attribute that to his age. We old bastards tend to play it careful, as we don't have the moves we once had.

    Then there's Spanish Toreador, The Excrementeater, Quiff, et al. A study all their own, for some psychologist being punished by banishment to studying insignificant and primitive people's cultures and beliefs.

  11. Damn, censoring comments now? You been going on dates with Ebonmuse?

  12. Giddyupeon says: "I'll let you in a little secret… those "experts" that dole out pharmaceuticals are in all reality legal drug pushers, who have hooked a gullible public on the notion that they need these drugs to survive and/or cope"

    QF: Tell that to the people who need insulin or who have chronic pain. Perhaps God condones blood letting or something, perhaps dung eating or snake dancing, but that is all superstition.

  13. Quiff, those examples, much like your life in general, are meaningless. Far more pestilences are caused by drugs, and as for those examples you gave, those maladies are actually aggravated, if not outright caused by the crappy diets that are forced upon us by a society that's too fucking consumed with surviving to actually look after itself properly.

    The 'experts' determine what we should eat, then they change their minds, and then they change their minds AGAIN… they don't have a fucking clue, just like you.

    The biggest crime is bombarding people with radiation either externally or internally, further weakening the only REAL system for recovery there is – the immune system. This guarantees perpetual slavery to the drug pushers and their quack salesmen, (doctors) until the patient withers up and dies.

    Natural remedies are looked down upon, and any REAL doctor caught using them or prescribing them, gets hauled up before a review board of his/her quack peers and railroaded.

    Know something, witless? I'd sooner subject myself to an African witchdoctor, rather than let some arrogant drug-pushing quack rearrange my cellular and genetic code with gamma particles or some other unearthly concoction!

    "Got a headache? Take a pill!" "Got a pain? Drink this!" "Having trouble getting it up? Use this!" "Dying? Oh… you must have been using our product! Pay up, first!"

    You really haven't been around for very long, have you, Quiffy?

  14. Wah, cry me a river Giddyupeon, I don't care.

  15. You don't think, either, that's your problem.

  16. So let's parse what seems to pass for intellectually stimulating and rational commentary from cl, or as I would call it, complete douchery. We start with a naked assertion about what I and other atheists like me think, then we progress to attacking me for apparently making a naked assertion. He then says I've irrationally reached a conclusion shortly before taking a quick swipe at Chaplain, which he can't help doing because of an irrational response to having been called a troll by her once, which compels him to forever be a "thorn in her side". At best he'd be a hypocrite, for he exhibits the behavior he rails against.

    As for objecting to "The fact that most people today are still ignorant of the things in life which affect them", it's almost too ridiculous to address. Sure, people today know the words cholesterol, virus, hormone imbalance, perhaps even statin, but are they fully understand them? Try watching an episode of House and see how much of the diagnoses proposed you've ever heard of let alone understand. Recognizing a word and understanding it are two different things, so I'd consider that lack of understanding as ignorance, and people are largely ignorant of what affects them just on the basis of the wealth of information there is to know, which is why those doctor experts both go through years of rigorous study and years of residency learning to apply that knowledge. Most people today are not doctors, have not undergone anything like their training and education, therefore can be said to be largely ignorant of what affects them just on this alone, but then you add affects which no one could know without proper testing and, well like I said, objecting to my fact statement is ridiculous.

    Now if you'd like to see more douchery, stick around and watch to see cl fashion a series of tangential arguments about fact statements, assertions, what's rational and whatever else he can muster to side track the discussion away from the topic, for that's what he does. What I'm guessing he finds intellectually stimulating is submarining discussions about a specific topic on atheist blogs.

    Btw cl, what part of "This post has been removed by the author" don't you understand? A bit ignorant of what may affect you, perhaps? ;)

  17. cl:

    Difference is, atheists like yourself seem to think your own ignorance and dependency somehow more noble.

    More noble that making up an explanation, yes.

  18. Philly, you started with the assertion, not me. You claim to be oh-so-rational, yet you make the same irrational blunders as the theists you criticize. Maybe one day you'll see it, maybe not.

    You said, "At best he'd be a hypocrite, for he exhibits the behavior he rails against."

    Untrue. I asked Chaplain a question. You, on the other hand, make assertions sans evidence and continue wearing your Rationalist T-Shirt. You speak without knowledge yet try to pass it off as rationalism. You are doing the exact same thing as the believers you criticize.

    What's the difference between a Catholic mistakenly believing a man in a black robe, and an atheist mistakenly believing a man in a white robe? I would have loved to hear your impassioned arguments for Piltdown Man's authenticity!

  19. And Philly, I didn't ask Chaplain the question I asked her because she called me a troll once. I asked it because I've noticed she hasn't posted anything besides photos, baseball talk and cute little jokes about church signs for two weeks now. She's free to do so, of course, and there's nothing wrong with her doing so. I was just wondering if perhaps she's tired of attempting cogent arguments.

  20. "I would have loved to hear your impassioned arguments for Piltdown Man's authenticity!"

    cl… shhh! We don't speak of those things, around here!

    ;-)

  21. And so it begins as predicted.

    Now here's the dilemma, continue addressing the incorrect points and other crap of cl's tangential arguments (especially when it involves repeatedly explaining the same things he'll just repeatedly ignore) which will create a string of tangential exchanges effectively accomplishing his goal of sidetracking the discussion, or simply ignore his comments?

    It's a tough choice because it may not be as easy for the casual visitor to see his comments are largely as unworthy of a response as Gideon's crazy rants, so ignoring them might appear negatively to such a person.

  22. Nor do we acknowledge that video that I continually shove in their faces of Ben Stein making a monkey out of Richard Dawkins…

    (No pun intended! LOL!)

    (Oh, alright… it was intended! LOL!)

  23. "… as unworthy of a response as Gideon's crazy rants…"

    Awwww, Pookie, got your buckskins shoved too tight up your ass, again, bunky?

    Remember… you come from a long line of illustrious apes… hold that head up high!

  24. Btw, Chief, I wouldn't have wanted to have been around if you had been around, say, 150 years ago, and seen you try and convince your ancestors they came from gorillas!

    LOL! They'd have stripped you naked, and tied you down with rawhide, and left you for the coyotes!

    That's assuming, of course, that you're really an Indian.

  25. You said, "It's a tough choice because it may not be as easy for the casual visitor to see his comments are largely as unworthy of a response as Gideon's crazy rants, so ignoring them might appear negatively to such a person."

    Well, then let's talk. Piltdown Man relates directly this post IMO, but I'm always willing to address anything you'd like.

  26. Well, I gotta go take my aged father out for Father's Day lunch, so I'll be leaving the sandbox for a time. You kiddies have fun, now!

    Btw, my dad isn't a Christian, but, even he thinks being descended from pond scum is right up there around believing in leprechauns and wood nymphs.

    Troglodyte that he is!

    LOL!

  27. Well, that reminds me, Gideon…

    Happy Father's Day all.

    Philly said: stick around and watch to see cl fashion a series of tangential arguments about fact statements, assertions, what's rational and whatever else he can muster to side track the discussion away from the topic, for that's what he does.

    Exactly. Such as when you called him on his absolutely outrageous accusation against you and he conveniently forgets to respond. This is his typical behavior. Then, in "responding" to the meat of your argument, he deceptively (yeah, except we are all wise to it now) inserts Piltdown man! Now we're supposedly to be so irrational as to chase *that* rabbit down the hole!

    He accuses you of wearing your "Rational" T-shirt, while resolutely hiding whatever T-shirt *he* wears – for many months now, and through many conversations. At least with Gideon, we *know* his T-shirt as well as it's size and color.

    Gideon does a lot of the other things CL does, but at least he makes me LOL – quite often. (Sometimes even intentionally!)

  28. Evo,

    You said, "Such as when you called him on his absolutely outrageous accusation against you and he conveniently forgets to respond."

    What "outrageous accusation" would that be? Did I miss something? Here I am asking Philly to continue discussion and you're saying I conveniently forget to respond..

    I'm a non-atheist skeptic and freethinker, John, and you've made me laugh out loud plenty of times, so don't worry..

  29. Damn, censoring comments now? You been going on dates with Ebonmuse?

    Philly Btw cl, what part of "This post has been removed by the author" don't you understand? A bit ignorant of what may affect you, perhaps?

  30. Perhaps you didn't see the question marks, Evo? Now go along and play with the rest of your buddies, if you don't have anything substantial to cry about.

  31. CL – are you going to continue being an irredeemable troll who never responds to direct questions or overwhelming evidence, but instead hijacks the conversations off on an Alice In Wonderland tangent?

  32. NAL,

    No ignorance is noble.

    Evo,

    Nobody's asked me a direct question in this thread. Feel free. Lead the way.

  33. Then, in "responding" to the meat of your argument, he deceptively (yeah, except we are all wise to it now) inserts Piltdown man! Now we're supposedly to be so irrational as to chase *that* rabbit down the hole!

    Hey! He just did that on my last post.

  34. Piltdown Man related to my point. I realize "he's" a sore spot for some.

  35. Dawkins is a big a liar as Dawson was… that video link I provided (one-track mind, eh?) proved that!

  36. Gideon, your video does not prove anything. Furthermore, I'm not sure you even understand what the word 'prove' means.

  37. QF – Gideon has no clear concept of the scientific (or even legal) sense of "evidence". He even believes that his naked assertions should be taken as such.

  38. Quiff, the only way you can understand anything, is if it has hair surrounding it.

    John, if you can honestly say that you never picked up on the inconsistencies of Dawkins' rants when questioned by Stein, well, I guess there's absolutely nothing that could convince you. Like I said, before, you don't want to be convinced. End of story.

    I don't think any of you do, you just want to be loud-mouthed infidels, waiting for some Christian to fall into your trap, then you can insult them and laugh at them. Well, the joke's on you, because everyone can see through your little game. You guys aren't out to learn anything, you're here to TELL everyone!

    Just like in public schools, where they TELL you how it is, and if you don't listen, they fail your ass! Then you get these whiney-assed "atheists" simpering about how they're done wrong by Christians… LOL!

    Then, the fag component of infidelity start indoctrinating the kids by spreading their fag bullshit around schools, calling it "alternative lifestyle." You wanna see vitriol and pure-d hatred for God? Go onto any fag blog and mention His name! Not only are they all sick and dying from a million different diseases derived from buggery, but, they all blame God and Christians for their problems!

    I wish I could remember the name of that blog I used to visit, some years ago, (an Australian fag) where half of the fags were terminally ill… they actually had a joint blog where they discussed possible cures and promising drugs… between insane outbursts against Christians, God, Christ, and anyone that dared to tell them they were dying because of their unnatural lifestyle! They had a special hatred for ex-fags that had learned that their lifestyle ISN'T genetic, and gained victory over their damnable habit. Most of them are probably dead, by now, anyway.

    You dolts remind me of them… unteachable, irreverent, arrogant and stupid!

    Oh well… it isn't my ass that's going to fry!

  39. Gideon here is just mad because reality doesn't conform to his Clay Adam, Unirib Eve, Animal Ark Noah, Dreamer Joseph, Mushroom Moses, Foreskin Abraham, Boils Job, Gay Slingshot David, Womanizer Solomon, Plankton Jonah, Crazy Ezekial, Firebird Shadrack, Fraudulent Daniel, Skitzo Paul, Wormwood John, and Zombie Jesus Religion Myths.

  40. And, widdle Quiffy's mad because the neighbor's cat wouldn't put out for him… again!

    Not to worry, son, there's always the dog… or a knothole in the fence… a wall socket… or maybe something closer to your size, like the eye of a needle.

    Try the zoo, Quiff. I hear those spider monkeys are a real challenge, or even the duck pond! There's no limit to what an aspiring young pervert like yourself can realize in his pursuit of the great debauch.

    Or, at the very least, you can take the problem in hand… tweezers would work better for you, I'm thinking… and dream of the life you might have had, if the cord hadn't wrapped around your neck on the way out of your mom's uterus. Twelve minutes without oxygen is pushing it, even for you!

  41. Remember… you can do all those things without guilt, because, as the great Dawkins has decreed to you, there is no God.

    Maybe you should call him up for a quick bang behind the barn, he looks like he'd be good for one!

  42. I'm sure that Zombie Jesus taught you to talk like that Gideon. Jesus, the master of child molestors though he his, the Pope and I'm sure you too Giddeon learned everything you know from Zombie Jesus about being celibate in a fishing boat with 12 other "celibate" men for many years.

  43. Try and catch a rerun of this past Sunday's Law & Order: CI. The best part is at the end with the cop (Vincent D'Onofrio) grilling the killer. The killer is killing people and trying to kill his family to send them to heaven. Lots of fun banter about knowing whose will you're serving, god or the devil, the Abraham and Isaac story, and other related religious gems.

  44. I appreciate the analogy, Philly, I do try to keep my tongue in check. Believe me, my heart's in the right place 93.7% of the time, and I'm always willing to have a respectable discussion whenever you are. I'm here for you, even though you constantly denigrate and slander me online for nothing other than crushing most of your arguments, I still hang around. I gotta admit, you stand your ground with some real east-coast grit and I like ya. Now quit being such a little twit all the time. Even Lifeguard said you can be too much of a smart-ass at times. Let me talk to SI on his blog. If you wanna know crap about me, hit me on my blog. You don't even do that. You wait until I show up where your friends are, and then mouth off. Really. To continue the pop culture / TV analogies (now you're talking my language), that's some west-coast SoCal Britney Spears "Friends" drama queen bullshit. Save it. Open your mind and try getting to know me. Or, continue providing loads of uproarious laughter in the meantime.

    Admittedly, I'm starting to wonder if Gideon is the Exterminator in disguise. thaN ageen, Giddyon shoor cmpozes bet er posts's then Trinit-ee. Whoever you are, Gideon, I bet you would get an uproarious laugh from this like I did. Hell, I spit root beer out my nose.

    Toodles.

  45. Bullshit.
    Bullshit.
    Bullshit.
    Bullshit.

    If you don't want me exposing your douchery cl, then don't go anywhere I go. It's that simple.

  46. You said, "Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit."

    Denial doesn't magically become cogency with Tourettic repetition, and the only thing you've exposed is that you think I'm a douche. I'm okay with you advancing your own beliefs and opinions; after all, it's part of what I pay taxes for.

    Can't wait 'til Gideon sees me linkee, tee-hee!!

  47. No, you're a douche. That's easily corroborated and of course there's plenty of examples of your douchery on my blog alone, let alone on the others you visit, for any reader who gives a crap to research for themselves.

  48. You're not that old, what's with the hearing? Again, I'm okay with you advancing your own beliefs and opinions; after all, it's part of what I pay taxes for.

  49. Besides, since when does a debater like yourself suddenly care about "researching crap for themselves?" Even your Team Scarlet A buddy John Evo called you on that one!

    So, when do you want to have a respectable discussion?

  50. You'd probably have a better chance demonstrating your god exists than demonstrating that you're capable of a respectable discussion, cl.

  51. I pay taxes for that opinion, too.

  52. "I'm sure that Zombie Jesus taught you to talk like that Gideon.

    No, queer bait, He didn't. I learned that growing up in a household of infidels. And, they were a helluva lot better at it than you, Junior.

  53. Btw, Quiff, the neighbor called… he'd like his hamsters back, now, and not all covered in shit like last time.

    CL… rest assured, I'm not ANY of these guys. Particularly our resident (self-proclaimed) ladies-man, Quiff. Hell, that'd be tantamount to being mentally-challenged!

  54. I don't know why Gideon just won't come out and say that those are his own gay beasti zombie fantasies that he is projecting on me.

  55. QF,

    "gay beasti zombie fantasies"

    LOL !

  56. BTW Philly – I'm more than willing to discuss your "douchebag gambit" charges anytime. Aside from the obvious fact of who was making it, what was your problem with my comment?

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