Intellectual honesty?


Yet another religious examiner makes a provocative post and yet again I respond. I recently had a talk with Ex about why it’s worth doing this. Certainly yes, anything I say to these people falls on deaf ears, yet although I address them, I’m not speaking just to them.

We both agree that the majority of believers (at least in our combined experiences) are fairly decent folk who don’t gasp at hearing we’re atheists, proselytize to us, condemn us, threaten local schools, picket clinics, or any other such Christian shenanigans we atheists fume over. Such crap is the ravings of the lunatic fringe, the extreme fanatics. Your everyday person who identifies themselves as a believer is pretty pragmatic and mild mannered, however, when the public forum is dominated by the fanatics, these people can be swayed (or coerced) to engage in similar behavior, hold some or all of the beliefs asserted (atheists are immoral and evil, aren’t real Americans, are intellectually dishonest, condoms aren’t just ineffective against the spread AIDS, they’ll make it worse, evolution is just a theory, etc), and, in a sense, become additions to a mindless mob which threatens society. This is why such ravings can not go unanswered. The public forum must have voices of reason to counterbalance the voices of lunacy.

Another reason why I regularly address nonsense arguments by the lunatic fringe is to prove to myself that I can. It’s very easy to simply dismiss out of hand the nonsense they assert, but that’s not intellectually honest. Doing so makes us no better, and makes us mere dogmatic, faith based creatures like them. No, the correct course of action, I feel, is to make sure you can address such nonsense rationally, especially because although the nonsense may seem obviously to be nonsense, it’s often not so cut and dry to demonstrate. Over time, the more you address these arguments, the better prepared you are to do so again, or pick them out cleverly disguised in other arguments and indeed, you will become quicker at getting to the roots of their arguments, so I encourage every atheist to engage in such exercises whenever possible. You never know when you might get blind-sided somewhere, someday, and you would like to be more than a deer in the headlights, no?

Soooo after that long preface, we have Mr. Scialdone’s charge of atheists being intellectually dishonest. What? No doubt your first reactions are ones of anger and dismissal, but remember, nothing is gained by such reactions. No, he makes some assertions which if ignored, can fester and grow in the minds of others and become accepted as true. His assertions require a response, and so I gave him one, as many others did. How would you respond? Think about it, and perhaps take a crack at it over there, or some other time when he or any other theist rants and raves.

Comment left for Mr. Scialdone….

Agnosticism refers to knowledge of the existence of a god or gods. You say atheists are technically agnostics, and I would agree, since we don’t know if there are any gods, but that cuts both ways. You, and all believers in gods, also are agnostics, for although you believe, you don’t KNOW whether what you believe is true.

Atheism, however, is the rejection of god claims because they’re unwarranted. This may lead one to assert there are no gods, but technically that’s intellectually dishonest, despite the fact that we all, atheist and theist alike, make such assertions daily regarding various other things which we both would agree are unwarranted to believe exist like Nessie or Leprechauns. We scoff and say they don’t exist, yet technically that’s intellectually dishonest, but it’s an acceptable stance to take in society for most of us agree that the evidence for their existence isn’t there, thus, belief in their existence isn’t warranted.

Now contrast that to assertions by the religious that there definitely is a god. Where’s the intellectual honesty there? You may feel in your heart that it’s true, but you don’t KNOW it’s true. You can have faith, but none of you have knowledge, for if you did, it would be front page news and let’s face it, then there couldn’t be any more atheists. If you had demonstrable evidence, then certainly the existence of your god(s) would be a warranted belief.

You are correct that “there’s simply nothing to discuss” if the person across the aisle from you denies the possibility that they may be wrong, which is yet another reason why I would say most theists are intellectually dishonest, for they are incapable of entertaining the possibility that they might be wrong. If we can agree that a god might NOT exist, we can begin to examine any evidence or arguments addressing the existence of any god. It’s the beginning of a long process, to be sure…but it’s a beginning.
—————————

I should also add that there’s an old quote from Socrates (I think it was him) that I always keep in mind when responding to arguments:

“A fool tries to persuade me with his words, the wise man persuades me with my own”

I find it useful to, when possible, use your opponents words in your responses. Sometimes they’re oblivious to the fact that their assertions actually work against their arguments. This is especially true of theists for, not being intellectually honest, they haven’t looked at their position objectively. They hold their belief true and form arguments and make assertions to champion their beliefs without really exploring the full ramifications of those arguments and assertions. In tying up their arguments, they may very well have left enough rope lying around to hang themselves, so rather than battling, all you need to do is point to that, and smile.

As you can see above, I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Scialdone’s statements about intellectual honesty and the frustration of having to deal with people who can’t entertain the idea that they may be wrong; however, clearly, he’s confused who’s who in that problem of intellectual honesty, and it’s no surprise that he has, since he’s championing a belief he can’t accept as wrong, and therefore can’t look at the issue objectively, and THAT is most certainly not intellectual honesty.

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128 Responses to “Intellectual honesty?”

  1. It’s very easy to simply dismiss out of hand the nonsense they assert, but that’s not intellectually honest. Doing so makes us no better, and makes us mere dogmatic, faith based creatures like them.

    Excellent post. I often find myself frustrated and anxious when I am unable to clearly articulate (at least to myself) why I don’t believe something to be true. And it is definitely a skill which needs to be developed through practice.

  2. Plus – it’s fun to be right. Hey, I’m human.

    There are a few things in life that I’m sure of beyond any doubt. One of those things is that a strong case for the existence of god(s) has never been made.

    This doesn’t mean there are no gods. It just means there is no objective evidence for it. And if you are with me up to this point, you’d have to agree that even more – there is no objective evidence that any given religion has the truth on its side.

    So one of the best tools you can use in these discussions is to turn it from a discussion about your atheism or agnosticism to one that dissects the faith claims made by the other person – specifically, not only “is there a god”, but “why do you believe the particular god story you have faith in”?

    It’s much easier to cast doubts on the legitimacy of a religion than to cast doubts on the existence of an invisible creature. The church is REAL, and real things can be deconstructed.

  3. So one of the best tools you can use in these discussions is to turn it from a discussion about your atheism or agnosticism to one that dissects the faith claims made by the other person

    Right. This is the point where I sometimes have to take a moment to think about whether I want to have a dialog on their terms or mine. It’s easy to fall into the trap of defending a position of nonbelief when the real issues are, a) what are the specific beliefs under examination, and b) what is the evidence for those beliefs?

    Philly did a nice job of taking the theist’s claims, one by one, and demonstrating that they applied at least equally well (and sometimes more so) to the theist’s position. Nice work, Philly.

  4. In belt systems of martial arts, you start with a white belt, add more color as you progress until you reach black (which is actually the absence of color, but nevermind that), and then further progression adds white stripes of sorts. Over time, theoretically, your belt could once again become white from so many added stripes.

    This is how I see emotion in arguing with theists. Initially, without much experience, you lash out emotionally. Over time, you refine your skills and become emotionless. Over a longer period, I feel, emotion can return because the ability to surgically dissect and attack their nonsense becomes either effortless or you’ve gained a focus for it which emotion can no longer distort or destroy.

    CERTAINLY, you should resist the urge to defend and instead attack. The best defense, imo, is one which quickly turns into a two pronged attack, one which first disarms, then retaliates. In Tang Lang Chuan, this is called Go, Lo, Sai:
    • Go – initial block
    • Lo – grab and trap the attacking limb
    • Sai – strike while opponent is trapped and controlled

    When executed correctly, it appears as one action. It takes time to achieve that, as does effective argumentation.

  5. Maybe a bit off topic, but is that similar to the professed goal of presuppositional apologetics, to basically go on the offense? Or at least that’s the way I see the pre-supp apologist’s goals of undermining the other’s basis of reasoning.

  6. Like Mr. Scialdone said, if the person you’re dealing with can’t entertain the idea that they’re wrong, then “there’s simply nothing to discuss”. Unlike other believers, presuppositionalists can’t, by definition, entertain the idea that they’re wrong, nor can they even hypothetically consider that or any other condition which is contrary to their presuppositions. This is why, other than for shear amusement’s sake (like in this hilarious exchange in the comments section), I won’t bother with them.

    I don’t find presuppositionalists unique in merely engaging in attack, but then that’s all they can do, since their everything hinges on an indefensible presupposition. Grant the presupposition, then sure, everything they say may make sense, but then there’s no reason to accept the presupposition, so… poof!

    I suppose their intent is to make you think your foundations are shaky or non-existent, at which time you’ll trade yours for their singular non-existent foundation. Sounds cooky to me, but then I’ve never fully understood why theists, as a goal, try to bring rational thought down to their level. I’ve taken a stab at it before, but I’d like to hear it from their mouths. I can only guess that if they can make everything seem like nonsense, then you’ll pick their nonsense, since as far as nonsense goes, there’s is the best. Whatever.

  7. Thanks Philly, that’s a helpful explaination.

    I was recently in a conversation with a christian and asked the question, “Can we even ask the question, is the bible true?” I never received an answer but instead was asked questions about how can we evaluate evidence. Followed by a series of strawman scenarios of applying evidence (bible on one hand, whatever on the other), since I never put forward any specific cases, I was just asking the original question philosophically.

    So I don’t know if he was basing his approach on a form of presuppositional apologetics, or if he was just intuitively trying to undermine where I was coming from. Same difference either way I guess.

  8. And yes, it was a funny exchange.

  9. Hey Philly – this graphic looks awfully familiar. You haven’t run out of material so soon have you? You’re a fucking ARTIST, for Jesus’ sake!

  10. Busted.

    Actually, I was going to get into the other issue of intellectual honesty, that of acting one way online and another in real life, which tied into the post where I first used that image. This post got so long, I dropped that, but the image remained.

  11. acting one way online and another in real life

    “Online” isn’t real life? Is it dreamland, or something supernatural? How about, “online or in-person”?

  12. I’m talking about being Raging Atheist online and Mousy McChristian or Mumsy McSilent everywhere else. For those double life folk, this isn’t reality. This is a fantasy land where they can pretend to be who they wish they were. It’s a WoW that’s free.

    Pseudo names are one thing, as having your real name on display as we recently learned can have dire consequences, but at least if you talk the talk, walk the walk.

    I for one wear my headdress everywhere. :) ~

  13. My real name is John Evo and I don’t care who the fuck knows it!

    I guess I find the type of person you are referring to as kind of sad. Hopefully they are among the supposedly huge numbers of non-believers who are recent to our ranks and haven’t figured out how to ride the atheist bike without training wheels. And hopefully blogs like yours will help them.

    Everyone has a right to live their life openly and without fear of consequences. Hell, if there ARE going to be consequences, it should be for those who still believe in voodoo and magic spells, not for those who point out how obsolete superstition should be in 2009.

  14. It is my conviction that believers are intellectually honest but they are just limited in their knowledge and vocabulary. God is a word that can have many different secular definitions or can have many different explanations that fit the mold better. Often times I offer a better explanation by replacing the word God or whatever with “blank____” and then I go from there.

    “loving Jesus” is often just a meaning of “a willingness to do what the pastor or bible says”

    “believing in Jesus” means “deluding oneself to believe dogma”

    ……actually, if I wasn’t so buzzed I’d elaborate better here. Time to cook a sausage and get some food though.

  15. ….okay, I guess what I was saying is that there is always a perfectly naturalistic explanation for why people believe and do what they do. Invoking the supernatural means that there is mere confusion in what really underlies reality. I guess it is not intellectual honesty I was addressing, but the other kind of honesty whereby people are giving explanations for what they observe in the world as they believe it exists and yet they are just being unobjective or misinformed.

  16. Over time, the more you address these arguments, the better prepared you are to do so again, or pick them out cleverly disguised in other arguments and indeed, you will become quicker at getting to the roots of their arguments, so I encourage every atheist to engage in such exercises whenever possible. You never know when you might get blind-sided somewhere, someday, and you would like to be more than a deer in the headlights, no?

    Agreed . . . but how to get started practicing? Besides being daunting, half the time, I don’t feel intellectually equipped to knocked down many arguments–and generally don’t even recognize strawmen for what they are. I’d get bogged down in minutiae I should’ve ignored, and totally miss that the premise is itself laughable. It’s one thing talking down my idiot friends (who more likely than not just get sick of my nasally, helium voice and let me win to shut me up) and another thing to weigh in against someone who’s . . . prepared, and somewhat more organized about the brain-pan than I.

    That’s what’s so awesome about you and The Chaplain. You guys knock down strong and weak points by crumbling whole lines of argument.

    I simply, literally, don’t know how you guys do it.

    I find it useful to, when possible, use your opponents words in your responses. Sometimes they’re oblivious to the fact that their assertions actually work against their arguments. This is especially true of theists for, not being intellectually honest, they haven’t looked at their position objectively. They hold their belief true and form arguments and make assertions to champion their beliefs without really exploring the full ramifications of those arguments and assertions. In tying up their arguments, they may very well have left enough rope lying around to hang themselves, so rather than battling, all you need to do is point to that, and smile.

    So I see–your reply was simple, didn’t get caught up in details. Irrefutable, at least by me: the sword of intellectual honesty cuts both ways.

    Over time, theoretically, your belt could once again become white from so many added stripes.

    That is so zen. So freakin cool!

    When executed correctly, it appears as one action. It takes time to achieve that, as does effective argumentation.

    But how can you tell if you’re getting any better at it, or just flailing around like a spaz? How does one learn to argue correctly? It seems like the best way would be to back someone into a corner of their own making and keep them there till they say uncle, but how do you do that? Are there books or classes that teach people to argue well?

  17. Vitamin R -

    Philly can definitely be a good resource for you, since he does it all the time and is very good at it. Just keep following his battles until they become second nature to you. Also, he used to do a “series” where he exposes various fallacies that the religionist will use over and over again. Maybe he can point you to them.

    Look, I can tell from your writing (and even from your lack of “certainty”) that you are brighter than at least 90% of the theists we encounter in discussions. Start by going to seldom-visited Christian blogs and just get into it with them. They’ll probably be happy for the chance to convert you. Meanwhile, you’ll see all of the tricks they use and learn to spot and destroy an argument even before they’ve made it.

    Finally, just remember that you can’t measure your success in “de-conversions”. Those are rare. Hell, even if you have a part in someone leaving religion, you’ll probably never even know about it. Don’t expect a Hallmark thank you card.

    So how do you measure success? You’ll know – when you understand that you have just eviscerated some guys best arguments and the confidence you lack now starts burning in you.

  18. Howdy Philly. Great opening paragraph in your response to Scialdone. More believers need to understand the extent to which they court agnosticism.However, "Atheism, however, is the rejection of god claims because they're unwarranted," seems just a bit off to me. A more accurate statement, and a distinction that you yourself ask theists to make later on in the post, would be, "Atheism is the rejection of God claims believed to be unwarranted.""This may lead one to assert there are no gods, but technically that's intellectually dishonest,"I agree. You mean like the last paragraph in this post?

  19. There’s a scene in Rob Roy (if you haven’t seen it, rent it now) where he talks to his kids about honor. One son asked, “how do you get honor?” The response was something like, “ne’er worry ’bout the gettin’. It grows in ye and speaks to ye. All you’ve got to do is listen.”

    Religious arguments are dishonest, therefore, without honor. If you remain honorable, you’ll reflexably sense dishonesty. Tracking down its root comes through practice. Don’t be like Iverson. Practice is the key. Practice, practice, practice.

    Certainly look at how others dissect arguments for ideas. Also, you can do some research on basic argumentation or at least refer back to a list of logical fallacies and see how someone’s statements match up to that list. See a match? Well there’s your starting point.

    {Yoda voice}Know you will when right you do. mmrph{/Yoda voice}

    I have a link on the left to prior posts where I tried to pull the curtain back and expose the trick. I did some to address particularly tricky ones, but after you do a few, you just see the same tricks, again and again, so I haven’t done many in awhile because I feel I’d just be saying the same thing again. That’s the thing about experience, you see, there’s not much cleverness in their arguments. It’s a lot of same old, same old, so after you’ve seen several, then you pick out the trick in “new” arguments quicker and quicker, because it’s the same old shit.

    Some of those really threw me for awhile. Some here will attest to that, like that guy Iggy and his wind. That’s when I figured out ‘confusing labels and things’, and now I see that in a lot of arguments where I didn’t before (if you watch/listen to the Atheist Experience show and caught the Matt Slick TAG argument, that’s what he was doing).

    This is a great lecture series on Argumentation, and I’d recommend getting the audio version.

  20. There’s this great quote by an art director who idolized Helmut Krone. Something about how he copied Krone’s work till he himself got better. Trawling through Philly’s old posts oughtta help with my own version of that :D

    Hah! I don’t expect to de-convert anyone–and I’m in no state, intellectually, to try. Not yet, anyway. But how do you know you’ve ripped an argument apart? As opposed to the other guy not responding because he’s a) not interested in arguing, or b) thinks your points are made of so much stupid that they don’t bear refuting?

    And I suppose a good start might be tackling issues I have strong opinions about, but don’t see red over when I’m disagreed with. I don’t think a reply of “oh, yeah? Well, why don’t you get a spoon and eat me, Jerkface!” will fly as a well-thought out argument. . . .

  21. Vitamin R -

    (by the way, you might want to include Reason, Rationality and Reality among your reasons for the “R”)

    The simple underlying logical fallacy to always keep in mind is one they will seldom openly state. It’s the circular logic that keeps everything else they argue afloat – “I believe because I believe”. Rather than constantly having to deal with their endless pointless questions (i.e. “how can you have morals without a higher authority” or “If we are descended from apes, why are there still apes”?) always push the burden of proof back on them. They have none.

    For Netflix subscribers, Rob Roy is available for instant (free) viewing.

  22. Thank you, sensei! It appears the internets really isn’t just just for finding porn and shopping on ebay :D

    I googled “logical fallacy” and it was like an explosion of information (including the definition of logical fallacy, which was also helpful). I even found a debate video blog on blogger–

    But first . . . Some Of Your Better Moments. . . .

  23. Thank you for your attempt to correct my statement, cl, but as no correction was necessary, the attempt was unwarranted.I believe Ebon was indulging in poetic license, but of course I don't know for sure. ;) Tell me you weren't so hell bent on attacking him that you sifted through over 2 years of posts to find that, cl. If so, I think you might have a problem.

  24. John Evo: Consider it included. Next, the trifling matter of living up to such a description. . . .

    “I believe because I believe” . . . once they say that, any pretense of reason only looks like what it is.

    Rob Roy? On my agenda. Considering how much I love Scottish accents, it’s a bit perplexing that I haven’t watched it yet :/

  25. “But how do you know you’ve ripped an argument apart?

    How do you usually know your actions are correct?

    You’re also not really arguing to make a point with the person you’re arguing with, but rather whoever is observing. If the person across the aisle is disingenuous and/or is irrational, then reaching them through honest reason is unlikely.

    Btw, I learned a lot of words and phrases from Rob Roy:
    - silken purse
    - sow’s ear
    - cunny
    - quim

    There’s probably more. :)

  26. I still disagree and think your statement needs that correction. You don't know, as I don't know, as Joe Fundie doesn't know, and all you can know is that you've not seen evidence you believe warrants belief.And hell no I got better things to do than scour DA to hook Ebon on a petty point like that. Such was pure coincidence. I literally happened to read that comment right before popping over here, because Ebon put this post on his blog carnival.

  27. Were there demonstrable evidence, it would have been in all the papers I’m sure, so no, the belief is unwarranted. If it makes you feel better, I’ll add ‘so far’ at the end, as in…

    Atheism is the rejection of god claims because they’re unwarranted so far.

    Should there come a day such demonstrable evidence manifests, then belief may well be warranted. Same goes for Big Foot. How cool would that be? Oh, and Nessie. That would be awesome.

  28. Same goes for Big Foot. How cool would that be? Oh, and Nessie.

    Call me insane, but I’m more into the the notion of alien visitors.

    I guess I’ve been reading too much SciFi. Big Foot and Nessie seem so… pointless.

  29. “Were there demonstrable evidence, it would have been in all the papers I’m sure, so no, the belief is unwarranted.”

    Yeah, that’s a valid argument (sarcasm)! Look, I agree with you in spirit Philly, and of all your posts I’ve read I’d say this was the most well-written and non-emotional; I just think you avoid that last final step that would indicate true intellectual honesty.

    Atheism is the rejection of God claims because atheists believe the claims are unwarranted. Theism is the embracing of God claims because theists believe the claims are warranted.

    You can’t have one without the other, that is, if you want to actually be intellectually honest.

  30. Atheism is the rejection of God claims because atheists believe the claims are unwarranted. Theism is the embracing of God claims because theists believe the claims are warranted.

    So kind of a 50/50 proposition, eh?

    There either is a higher power or there isn’t and both sides would have equal claim to intellectual honesty based on their assertion of “belief” in the available evidence.

    Same with evolution, really. You either believe the evidence is overwhelming, or you think it proves nothing.

    Evolution becomes a 50/50 proposition.

    So, the question is – in order to be intellectually “honest”, do we have to consider evidence subject to “belief”? Just curious…

  31. John Evo,

    I don’t think my statements support your probability inferences, and I do not mean to imply that all ideas retain equal merit.

    So, the question is – in order to be intellectually “honest”, do we have to consider evidence subject to “belief”?

    No. To be intellectually honest, we must distinguish between fact and opinion, and reflect such in our writing. Philly said,

    Atheism, however, is the rejection of god claims because they’re unwarranted.

    It is a fact that atheism is “the rejection of god claims.”

    It is an opinion that God claims are “unwarranted.”

    Pretty simple, unless of course we’re trying to defend an opinion as fact.

  32. Evo’s point is valid. What one wishes to be true does not get equal standing with what evidence suggests otherwise. Example:

    I believe you’re on mind altering medication, and your mood swings are tied to you taking your meds or not. Is it your position that my belief is as valid as your belief that you’re not on medication when a search of your home would show no drugs, no prescriptions could be found in your name and a tox screen would show no evidence of psychotropic drugs in your system? Such demonstrable evidence might lead one to believe that my claim is unwarranted, yet others could look at your body of work online and feel my belief is more than warranted. Is it intellectually honest to hold both beliefs as equally valid?

    Lastly, the presence of emotion in a post does not automatically destroy the intellectual merit of that post.

  33. Your background makes your post almost unreadable. Just go with all white, please.

  34. The debate about “God” just depends on what the “God” is supposed to BE. I guarantee all theists start out by believing there is a sky man. Period. When challenged they lapse into mumbo-jumbo “spiritual” cant, invisible but detectable judges and creators on the sky. But this is nothing more than the projection of the human to the heavenly region. Having faith or belief in this entity in not an outstanding intellectual achievement.

    List any of the common attributes of this divinity, say, omniscience and free will and you will be able to draw a contradiction between them, and say, “no, your supposed god cannot exist.”

    That’s all. Bye.

  35. Nearenough -

    It is interesting that nearly all gods in the history of humankind (including Yaweh) have so many very human characteristics. Here is the creator of the universe (which is vastly greater than most religious people realize) and yet it looks like us and, worse, behaves so much like us (think of the anger and jealousy). Everyone’s god is such a petty creature. Just like them. I’m sure its mere coincidence.

  36. “What one wishes to be true does not get equal standing with what evidence suggests otherwise.”

    Of course.

    “I believe you’re on mind altering medication, and your mood swings are tied to you taking your meds or not. Is it your position that my belief is as valid as your belief that you’re not on medication when a search of your home would show no drugs, no prescriptions could be found in your name and a tox screen would show no evidence of psychotropic drugs in your system?”

    Of course not, not when you load things like that. Wasn’t this post about intellectual honesty? Seriously Philly.

    “Lastly, the presence of emotion in a post does not automatically destroy the intellectual merit of that post.”

    Did I say “the presence of emotion in a post automatically destroys the intellectual merit of that post?” Or are you paraphrasing out of scope again?

    Again, bottom line – It is a fact that atheism is “the rejection of god claims.” It is an opinion that God claims are “unwarranted.”

    I don’t know why that is so hard for some people to admit.

  37. Don’t care for the analogy, cl? Why? It matches all the parameters of your argument. Perhaps too difficult to accept your logic isn’t universally applicable, but only for your god argument? Smells like special pleading to me, which, of course, isn’t very intellectually honest.

    Did I say “the presence of emotion in a post automatically destroys the intellectual merit of that post?”

    What you said was, “of all your posts I’ve read I’d say this was the most well-written and non-emotional”. Perhaps you didn’t intend to imply that the presence of emotion is a detriment, but that’s the result of your comment.

    Perhaps you should take more care in your comments. Think about it, on every blog you comment you complain about people putting words in your mouth, incorrectly paraphrasing, and straw manning you. After awhile, when this happens to you so frequently, and rarely if ever happens to other people on the same blogs, don’t you have to ask yourself, “am I perhaps not being clear in my writing?”

    Anyway, it’s a FACT your god’s existence so far has not been demonstrable, making acceptance of its existence unwarranted.

    I don’t know why that is so hard for some people to accept.

  38. I loved the analogy, I disagree with the way you loaded it. You loaded it with unwarranted evidence to begin with, when the nature of the evidence was the opinion in question. Gee, that’s honest! Do you enjoy painting bull’s eye’s around your targets? Rhetorically successful perhaps, not very logical.

    It is a fact that atheism is “the rejection of god claims.” It is an opinion that God claims are “unwarranted.”

    Also interesting: You read all sorts of stuff into my comment that I did not say, then turn around and pull this:

    “After awhile, when this happens to you so frequently, and rarely if ever happens to other people on the same blogs, don’t you have to ask yourself, “am I perhaps not being clear in my writing?”

    I can’t prevent you from making inferences that weren’t there. That you did so is your breach of logic, not mine. My original words were nowhere near the insinuation you made. Of course, whenever something is unclear, you can always give your opponent the benefit of the doubt and ask them what they really meant. That way you don’t have to, you know, presuppose!

    Lastly,

    “Anyway, it’s a FACT your god’s existence so far has not been demonstrable, making acceptance of its existence unwarranted.”

    A little better, and I like that you’re at least starting to critically consider, but again, Philly, the most intellectually honest statement you can make is this: “I (as in Philly) have not found any evidence for God that I consider warranted.”

    See? Not hard to really be intellectually honest.

    And that nobody can prove God is very easy for me to accept.

    John Evo,

    “Plus – it’s fun to be right.”

    Although true, this reminds me of when Philly told me, “Is it my fault I’m nearly always right?”

    I laughed for days! I can’t take even half-seriously anyone who utter such jibberish.

  39. “You loaded it with unwarranted evidence to begin with, when the nature of the evidence was the opinion in question.”

    The requirement of demonstrable evidence to warrant acceptance of a claim is opinion then, is that your assertion?

    “I can’t prevent you from making inferences that weren’t there.”

    Actually, as the author, that’s your responsibility to ensure that’s as unlikely to happen as possible, unless you have no care as to whether your thoughts are conveyed correctly.

    Is it really more likely to assume others’ logic and/or intelligence isn’t up to following your writing, or that perhaps everyone is determined to misread and malign you, instead of considering that perhaps you’re simply failing at correctly conveying your thoughts?

  40. CL – your claims about the nature of intellectual honesty oversteps the bounds of a reasonable, HONEST discourse.

    It is a fact that atheism is “the rejection of god claims.” It is an opinion that God claims are “unwarranted.”

    This is a silly demand on “honesty”, even if there is a hint of truth in what you say. Apparently you mean that in order for one to be “intellectually honest”, they must say it this way:

    “my atheism is a rejection of god claims, and I think all such claims are unwarranted”.

    But by this same reasoning, I would have to maintain my honesty by wording the following sentence:

    I don’t believe in unicorns and reject all claims of their existence – which I personally find to be unwarranted.

    Really? You want to obscure intellectual honesty with trivial rules of speech? If there is anything wrong with what Philly said, it seems to me to be a bit superfluous. Of COURSE the arguments are “unwarranted”!

    Out of curiosity, can you provide one or two “warranted” arguments for the existence of gods? Arguments that aren’t so intellectual vacuous that they should be termed “unwarranted”?

  41. “The requirement of demonstrable evidence to warrant acceptance of a claim is opinion then, is that your assertion?”

    No. Analogously, there’s a prescription bottle here right now with my name on it, and what I said was I objected to you loading your analogy.

    “Is it really more likely to assume others’ logic and/or intelligence isn’t up to following your writing, or that perhaps everyone is determined to misread and malign you, instead of considering that perhaps you’re simply failing at correctly conveying your thoughts?”

    I don't assume "everyone is determined to misread and malign" me or that their "logic and/or intelligence" have difficulties with my writing. But I do happen to think that about a select few, certainly < five.

    And I conveyed my thoughts correctly. I said, "..of all your posts I've read I'd say this was the most well-written and non-emotional," and you replied, "..the presence of emotion in a post does not automatically destroy the intellectual merit of that post."

    So what? The only thing that's got going for it is that its not a total non-sequitur. I wasn’t implying that. Judging from that reply, I’d say you rushed ahead a tad and heard something more than the evidence reasonably permits. The emotional nature of an argument does not preclude its cogency. If you wanted to know my opinion about that, you should’ve asked, not assumed. You don’t get to just presuppose you know what I meant when more than one meaning is possible like you did with Geek Squad Guy @ Best Buy, then denounce me for lack of clarity when I was clear. Again, “..of all your posts I’ve read I’d say this was the most well-written and non-emotional.” That’s it, end of story, not “emotional posts aren’t cogent” or anything even remotely similar. I’ve read many cogent, emotional arguments. Wilde’s De Profundis comes to mind.

    Anyways, point being, look before you leap.

    John Evo,

    “Apparently you mean that in order for one to be “intellectually honest”, they must say it this way: ‘my atheism is a rejection of god claims, and I think all such claims are unwarranted’”.

    No, it’s not that they must say it that way. There’s many possible ways to express such in a 100% intellectually honest manner. I articulated my particular feelings on the matter in at least three other comments.

    “You want to obscure intellectual honesty with trivial rules of speech?” (emph. mine)

    No. Preserve. Although it didn’t need to be stated so passively, your unicorn example was intellectually honest.

    “Out of curiosity, can you provide one or two “warranted” arguments for the existence of gods?”

    I’d love to at least begin by discussing warrant a bit further with you, but not on Philly’s blog. I love questions and you know where to find me.

  42. “No. Analogously, there’s a prescription bottle here right now with my name on it…”

    Now see, that’s interesting. Although I did not have solid demonstrable evidence to support my beliefs concerning you and meds, it bore out to be true. Be that as it may, to simply assert “cl must be on meds” would have been unwarranted, despite actually having been true.

    See, your god belief may be correct, just as it may be correct to send money to a stranger who emails you asking for it in exchange for a later fortune, but both beliefs, without demonstrable evidence to support them, are unwarranted. So be happy that you might be right, but at the same time, accept that currently your belief is unwarranted.

    A ‘road to Damascus’ revelation or a conversation with a burning bush would not be considered warrants because they’re not demonstrable evidence, thus belief is as unwarranted as Mr. Crackers’ belief. Gut feelings, intuition, and so forth also are not warrants.

    —–

    You know, whenever you say something and someone doesn’t get what you’re saying, then CLEARLY you weren’t 100% clear. Clear as you’re capable of perhaps.

    Speaking of clear, you’re clear on the cast of characters now, right? Will we be treated to a new parse, or just more snips?

  43. but not on Philly’s blog. I love questions and you know where to find me.

    That’s a very odd response, but maybe I’m just not seeing a bigger picture. Why would it matter where we discuss it? I mean, I have no problem going to your blog, but we have a discussion going right here, right now. Are you (hopefully) deferring to Philly’s discussion staying on-topic?

  44. PhillyChief,

    “Although I did not have solid demonstrable evidence to support my beliefs concerning you and meds, it bore out to be true.”

    Interesting, isn’t it?

    “See, your god belief may be correct, just as it may be correct to send money to a stranger who emails you asking for it in exchange for a later fortune, but both beliefs, without demonstrable evidence to support them, are unwarranted.”

    Agreed.

    “So be happy that you might be right, but at the same time, accept that currently your belief is unwarranted.”

    There you go again, assuming while pretending to know. While you can reasonably estimate whether your own beliefs are warranted or not, you can’t just assume the same for everyone. You don’t know if my belief is warranted or not, I don’t know if yours are either, and your claim here is based entirely on your own conclusion that belief is unwarranted. Key words: your own conclusion.

    “You know, whenever you say something and someone doesn’t get what you’re saying, then CLEARLY you weren’t 100% clear.”

    I don’t care how many workers on the assembly line at General Motors smoke weed.

    John Evo,

    “Are you (hopefully) deferring to Philly’s discussion staying on-topic?”

    Exactly.

  45. Claiming you’re concerned with staying on topic in a thread, cl, is about as sincere as hearing NAMBLA is concerned about preventing pedophilia.

    If you had demonstrable evidence for your god, you’d share it. Anyone would, because aside from personal motivations of fame, fortune or advancing belief, intellectual honesty would compel someone to seek corroborating verification, the more the better. Such news would get out.

    So barring the off chance that the person I say “god claims are unwarranted” to is actually a member of a secret cabal who’s actively hiding demonstrable evidence for a god, I’m cool.

  46. Since Philly is now calling you out on the very question, please consider this an opportunity to give us a couple of arguments for gods existence that would not be unwarranted.

  47. Correction to last:

    A couple of pieces of “evidence” that would not be unwarranted.

  48. Evo / Philly: I don’t see the point. I’m not here to convince you there’s a God because I know I can’t convince you there’s a God.

  49. I didn’t think “convincing” me, was the point of our discussion.

    I really was just curious what you think should constitute a line of reasoning re: existence that should “warrant” serious examination.

    But, OK, I’d kind of given up on this 36 hours ago anyway!

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