In Defense of Same Sex Marriage

I want to take a moment and address some of the arguments against same sex marriage. I’ve argued with different people at different times over some of these arguments, but I thought I’d try and compile as many of them as I can in one place. The inspiration was The Chaplain’s great post about the conservative agenda to ultimately devalue marriage by denying same sex marriage.

98% of the world’s population does not recognize same sex marriage, and the 2% that does has only done so very recently.

I fail to see the point. Something isn’t right because the majority of the world doesn’t agree? Was self governance, free of any overseeing monarch, less right when our Constitution was ratified because the rest of the world didn’t agree with that form of government? Is conservation less right today because most of the world doesn’t practice it? Is the freedom of speech not right or not worth protecting because the majority of the world doesn’t have or protect it?

Marriage (female/male), has persisted across all cultures of the world for thousands of years.

So has arranged marriage. So has polygamy. So what? Also, considering how long heterosexual marriage has persisted, I would think that it will probably continue to do so, regardless of the existence of same sex marriage. How can something that has existed for so long be so fragile? The assertion undermines the argument.

The main advantage of traditional marriage is that it gives a child a mother and a father. Where a child comes from is very important to a child.

As someone who was adopted, I can say that “where I came from” really doesn’t mean shit to me, especially compared to knowing that I had a home and a family that loved me. Sadly, there are some kids who weren’t adopted and can’t say that. The point though is having a loving family, even if that means just one parent, is what’s important for a child. There’s nothing barring a same sex couple from providing that to a child.

A child needs both a mother and a father

So what, we should outlaw single parenting? Should child services swoop in and take a child away if that child’s parents divorce or worse, one dies? Perhaps the surviving parent could have a grace period, say 3-6 months to remarry, before child services takes the child and places it in a foster home?

Statistically, children raised by both biological parents fare better then average then any other arrangement.

Well once again, this ignores adoption. Second, simply assuming that the statistics are true, my guess is a large percentage of single parent homes are, to be polite, economically challenged. In such a situation, there are far more factors involved than simply the absence of a second parent, like for instance a lesser education. Aside from being able to provide a second parent, a same sex couple, statistically earning far more that the median US household income, can greatly increase the chances for success of a child by providing access to a better education, and even a better diet which is very important.

I don’t see much evidence where same sex parenting has benefitted children.

Research shows that families headed by gay and lesbian parents are as healthy as traditional families.

The point of marriage is procreation.

Then should couples be mandated to pass a fertility test prior to being granted a marriage license? Should there be a time period, say within 1-3 years, that a couple must procreate before rendering their marriage null and void? What about elderly couples who marry for companionship and mutual assistance? Should they be denied as well since marriage is simply about procreation? Perhaps these people who can’t procreate should be forced to take in the children from the families that divorce or where one parent died and the other failed to remarry within the alloted time?

The majority of Americans are simply not ready for same sex marriage.

• At the time of the Revolution, perhaps a third of the people wanted Independence.

• At the beginning of the Civil War, Lincoln was still hesitant to outlaw slavery because there was not enough support in the North when that would mean reconciliation was impossible. It was only later, after the North was resolved to see the war through to the end and, more importantly, to ensure the British would not support the South, that he then made the Emancipation Proclamation.

• It took “activist judges” in 1954 to “legislate from the bench” against the majority opinion of the people to rule segregation in public schools was unconstitutional, and federal troops and the National Guard to ensure 9 black students could go to high school in Little Rock in 1957, again, against the overwhelming opinion of the people in AK, and probably beyond.

• “Activist judges” once again, in 1967, made bans on interracial marriage unconstitutional, against the opinion of the people of at least 16 states.

Right is right, whether you’re ready for it or not has no bearing.

If gays are allowed to marry, what’s next? Polygamy? Bestiality?

Has that happened in countries that have gay marriage? How about in the states that have it? The suggestions are ridiculous. Bestiality doesn’t even warrant a response, and polygamy? The arguments against polygamy don’t change. Same sex marriage is still a monogamous union.

Same sex marriage will undermine the sanctity of marriage.

First, I would think that having so many people clamoring for it would reinforce it’s sanctity, if by sanctity you mean importance. If instead you mean some religious thing, I wasn’t aware the government was supposed to play a role in enforcing religious beliefs on everyone. Now I know that, for instance, when I discover a little known food or band and then later everyone finds out and gets into them, I feel a bit sad, but that’s a selfish sentiment, isn’t it? I mean, the food doesn’t taste different because others are eating it too, does it? Does a song sound any different on your iPod if 10 million other people have it on their iPod? The sanctity, the value and importance of something is not diminished by allowing more people access to it. Quite the contrary, it increases it.

If same-sex marriage became the norm in our society, we would get less traditional marriage.

I would think such a high divorce rate in America today does more to dissuade people from getting married than allowing more people who want to get married do so.

Gay sex is immoral and repulsive. I don’t want my children exposed to that and told that’s ok.

And teaching children it’s ok to deny equal rights to people they personally find repulsive is fine? Teaching hatred is just fine? I have to tell you, I find hatred, violence and ignorance far worse things to have children exposed to. Furthermore, I personally find it repulsive to imagine most people I meet having sex. Most couples I see aren’t that pretty but hey, who am I to deny them happiness?

Well gay sex is unnatural.

So are eyeglasses, polyester, vitamin supplements, and artificial insemination. Should we outlaw those, too?

Kids raised by gay couples will end up gay.

Yes, like how kids raised by straight couples always end up straight.

Same sex marriage will change the foundation of society.

I think the internet has had a more profound effect on changing society than same sex marriage will, but so what? Americans can’t adapt? Less than a hundred years ago, travel by automobile was pretty scarce and airplane travel? Forget about it. Did we manage to adapt to those changes? Is change always bad? I think truly providing equal rights is the kind of foundational change worth embracing. The ideas of separate but equal, of some or more equal than others, and of course that your value, your “specialness” must come at the expense of others are repugnant and make for a piss poor foundation for society.

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196 Responses to “In Defense of Same Sex Marriage”

  1. I see your arguments…but with all due respect, and you do deserve it, most of your arguments are fallacious. They take the following format: Action A (homosexuality; which is being argued by some as an immoral or socially damaging behavior) should be allowed because Action B (single parents (and so on); a common and practiced immoral or socially damaging behavior) is allowed. I simply argue that we should prevent action A from occurring while simultaneously work on changing society’s view on Action B.

  2. “I simply argue that we should prevent action A from occurring while simultaneously work on changing society’s view on Action B.”

    So you want to change society’s views on eyeglasses and artificial insemination? You want to change the view that people who can’t or won’t procreate should be allowed to marry? You want to change society’s opinion of adoption? of ugly people being allowed to marry?

    With all due respect (virtually none) if you’re going to object to a form that most of my arguments take, the least you can do is correctly identify that form. You have not. The few that might fit your claim, if you follow your objection to them as I showed above, make such objections absurd.

    How does countering the claim that there’s no evidence same sex parenting has benefitted children with research that shows children from gay families are as healthy as traditional families fit your form claim? How is showing majority opinion doesn’t equal right fit your claim? How does exposing the fallacy of tradition fit your claim? How does exposing personal bigotry and hatred as a lousy argument fit your claim? How does easily exposing the absurd claim that kids raised by gay couples will end up gay fit your claim?

    Take a little more time before objecting next time. Perhaps then your comment would be due more respect. I’m sure you’re capable of doing so. No rush, this blog and this post aren’t going anywhere.

  3. While your point stands as a valid (additional) response to gay sex being unnatural, can we truly say it is when it occurs throughout nature?

  4. If “natural” means occurring in nature then yes, gay sex and gay relationships are natural. Recent memory was those penguins at a zoo that someone created a children’s book about (and of course fundies had a cow over).

    If “natural” means won’t work for procreation, once again, is that the only purpose for sex? I know the religious are against butt sex and oral sex and sex through or otherwise aided by props, but really, since when did people’s ability or willingness to have sex factor into granting a marriage license?

    The argument is a non sequitur, so I didn’t take it seriously, just like the bestiality claim. Most of the arguments are vacuous and hard to take seriously, but unfortunately they work on people so they have to be addressed, but some are so silly they deserve little more than ridicule.

  5. Philly, nice post. OG called it right when she said that the primary motivation behind opposition to gay sex is the “ick” factor. I wonder if the “ick” factor motivates religious zealots far more than the “God said it” factor? I suspect it does.

  6. I saw a quote once (on a Christian blog no less) that has stuck with me on every argument I hear from that side concerning gay marriage:

    “You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”

    –Anne Lamott*

    This isn’t about preserving the sanctity of marriage or “the children” when the divorce rate is near 50%. This is about typical Christian bigotry and hate for anyone they disagree with. Is it ironic that all the same arguments are made against gay marriage as were used against inter-racial marriage? Christians lead the charge against interracial marriage as well.

  7. I like that quote, and yeah, ick is not a criteria for denying marriage.

  8. Mikes response: *Crickets chirping*

    Good post Philly.

    I’d like to change society’s view on the common, practised and emotionlly damaging behaviour of christian worship.

  9. I’m enjoying now a lecture series entitled Terror of history. It addresses some roots of those views Sean, and to my delight, the lecturer refers to Nietzsche’s Birth of Tragedy and the concepts of Apollonian and the Dyonysian.

    Wait for when they have sales. I got the mp3 download version for $30.

  10. nice article.

  11. I don’t get the stance against polygamy. I mean if I love Amy and Bob, why should I be forced to choose one of them to marry and have to hurt the other one by saying, “Sorry, but you’re out and Bob/Amy is in.” ? How many times is it likely that people have been so hurt by this damnable, outdated, tribal leftover of monogamy?

  12. There are too many legal woes involved in polygamy, and it opens up a lot of potential for shenanigans. There’s inheritances, health and SS benefits, parental custody, property, and the possibility that a criminal organization could simply declare they’re all married to one another.

    Now there’s no law against you and Amy and Bob co-habiting and doing whatever it is you all like to do. Knock yourselves out.

  13. There’s inheritances, health and SS benefits, parental custody, property,In current society complications like these arise in dealing with inheritances, health and SS benefits, and property matters where children are concerned. Can settling inheritance for a large family really be any easier than for a multi-person marriage? Can putting two spouses on your insurance really be any harder than putting 4 children on it?

    and the possibility that a criminal organization could simply declare they’re all married to one another.We should not allow something because criminal organizations might muck with the new laws????????!!!!!!!!!!!

    Sorry, but these arguments hold water like a sieve. Do you have any more?

  14. “Can settling inheritance for a large family really be any easier than for a multi-person marriage?”.

    Does a first wife have a greater claim than a third?
    What about a child of a third over a child of the first?
    What if that child of the third is older than the child or the first?
    How would you settle custody in a divorce?
    How would you settle who gets what in a divorce?
    What if you want to divorce one but get outvoted by the rest?

    “We should not allow something because criminal organizations might muck with the new laws??”.

    Any new law has to be considered in light of all possible ramifications, so yes, if there’s evident potential for the law to be used in an unintended way, you have to somehow rephrase it to address that usage if possible.

    Look, I like the show Big Love so I’m not completely unsympathetic, but polygamy is a legal quagmire. Perhaps one day someone will figure out how to make it work legally, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

  15. Sure it’d be a legal mess for a while. So are lots of things. Heck, if being a legal mess and lots of potential for abuse were really criteria for not doing something, we’d be free of the tax code wouldn’t we?

    The arguments I always hear for same sex marriage say that we have no right to tell people who love each other that they have no right to have that love recognized by society; that we can’t deny them spousal rights just because we don’t like/agree with/understand/know how to regulate their relationship. I see no difference in those arguments applied to two guys getting married or three girls.

    So it’s legally complicated. Work it out. Don’t tell me we have to have all the loopholes sealed first. That’s silly.

    Frankly I don’t give a tinker’s damn if folks want to support same sex marriage. But don’t then turn around and start arguing against other marital arrangements between adults.

  16. I don’t see how your analogy to the tax code is applicable.

    ” I see no difference in those arguments applied to two guys getting married or three girls.”.

    You see no difference between 2 and 3?

    “So it’s legally complicated. Work it out. Don’t tell me we have to have all the loopholes sealed first. That’s silly.”.

    Silly or not, that’s how the law works. Furthermore, since you’re arguing to have something new, you have to argue for it. You’re not doing so well with that.

    The argument for gay marriage, despite what the anti-gay lobby claims, is not an argument for something new. The current laws concerning a marriage contract would still be applicable. In fact, it’s the current laws on which the gay marriage argument stands, for it’s really an argument about equality, about allowing ALL people to engage in a currently existing, but exclusionary practice.

    Your polygamy issue is a request to create a new practice, meaning new laws. That’s a tall order and a harder sell.

  17. Look, if you think it’s so bloody hard to figure out how to deal with polygamous marriages, maybe we could save figuring it all out from scratch and just ask one of the many societies that currently practice it or have practiced it in the past.
    Somehow, despite the “insurmountable” obstacles you set forth multi-partner marriages have existed and continue to exist. They’ve even been more accepted that same-sex marriage.
    So it’s not a new practice, though it would indeed require new laws for western countries of today.

    Your arguments so far have been: we’d need new laws; the laws would be complicated; the laws could be abused. THAT’S your best?? Come on! We need new laws for things all the time. They are often complicated. They almost invariantly get abused.
    Here are just a few areas where new and very complicated laws have been enacted lately (and abused):
    Embryonic research
    Nuclear development
    Tax laws and regulations
    Investment laws
    Property laws
    Business laws

    Criminy the whole Code of Federal Regulations is one, gigantic, complex, much-abused quagmire.

    Sorry man. You’re objections just don’t hold up.

    My arguments for being able to marry Bob and Sue are exactly the same as your arguments to allow me to marry just Bob. I’ll grant you that a 3 person marriage will be more legally complicated than a two person marriage. So what? We can work out the legal kinks.

  18. “My arguments for being able to marry Bob and Sue are exactly the same as your arguments to allow me to marry just Bob.”.

    No, they’re not, and you’ve already admitted they’re not when you agreed polygamy would require new laws. Lifting the ban on gays marrying doesn’t require any new laws.

    Frankly, I don’t know why you’re arguing with me over this. If your case is so sound, present it to your local legislature. If you do, be prepared to offer:
    • Why a new set of laws are needed
    • What they’d be
    • What ramifications they’d have on pre-existing laws
    • What possible other ramifications there might be
    • How you’re “why” outweighs any and all negative ramifications of enacting new legislation

    Good luck, but then you shouldn’t need it, right? I mean, if my objections “don’t hold up” then you should have no troubles. ;)

  19. Lifting the ban on gays marrying doesn’t require any new laws.That’s one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve seen in some time. In case you’ve missed the news for the past couple decades, same-sex marriages have been allowed in a few places by the passing of new laws. In places where there are not laws allowing same-sex marriages, they are not allowed and may not be recognized.

    I’m not going to my legislator because I’m not trying to support polygamy or same-sex marriage. I’m arguing with you because you, like so many others, have accepted the pro-same-sex marriage arguments, yet you hold out against multi-partner marriage. As long as you’re wanting a redefinition of the term “marriage”, you need to be willing to accept the consequences of such mucking about.

    And it’s not the “mucking about” that bothers me. It’s the “I want to muck about, but only on my selected terms” attitude that bothers me. Or the “This is my new definition of the term and you better accept it, but I’m not gonna put up with your new definition” attitude.

    For my own part I take the attitude of, “The term is already defined. Leave it the f*** alone!”

  20. Ah, I see. Well in that case, if you’re simply going to respond with assertions, then that doesn’t make for an argument. What bothers me is people who simply make assertions and think that’s argumentation.

    If you’d like to actually give cause why the case for polygamy should be allowed, and/or why it should due to gay marriage being allowed, be my guest. I have no further interest in nonsense like this.

    In case you’ve missed the news for the past couple decades, same-sex marriages have been allowed in a few places by the passing of new laws.

    And those new laws merely lift the previous discriminatory bans to the benefits of already established laws. How obtuse are you?

  21. Take a look at Canada. They legalized same-sex marriage and are now looking at legalizing polygamy. The arguments have to do with individual rights, freedom, and non-discrimination. Sounds a hellova lot like the arguments for same-sex marriage. In fact the proponents of allowing polygamy are using much the same arguments to good effect.

    Now I’ll let Mr. Turley speak a bit since he set it up well.

    “Individuals have a recognized constitutional right to engage in any form of consensual sexual relationship with any number of partners. Thus, a person can live with multiple partners and even sire children from different partners so long as they do not marry. However, when that same person accepts a legal commitment for those partners “as a spouse,” we jail them.

    Likewise, someone such as singer Britney Spears can have multiple husbands so long as they are consecutive, not concurrent. Thus, Spears can marry and divorce men in quick succession and become the maven of tabloid covers. Yet if she marries two of the men for life, she will become the matron of a state prison.”

    Mr. Turley calls this hypocrisy. Mr. Turley is right.

    Oh and on your legal problems: We already have legal complications arising from multiple marriages, out of wedlock births, adoptions, foster care, etc. Polygamy would only be one more aspect of all that mess.

    And, if same-sex marriage is just a matter of “lift the previous discriminatory bans to the benefits of already established laws”, then polygamy would be the same thing. For same-sex you look at the terms “one man and one woman” and get rid of the man/woman dichotomy. For polygamy you get rid of the discrimination of the term “one”. See. Not a big difference at all.

    P.S. – Love Monty Python.

  22. The Canadian problem, I think, is that the law is religiously based, which I guess opens it up to being opposed on religious grounds. If that’s the case, then the Canadian issue is irrelevant.

    Like it or not, new laws need to be made to accommodate polygamy. You have to give a reason why new laws need to be created. Morals are an interesting tactic, but I don’t see that working to convince a legislature.

    But you want to argue with me, not a legislature, yet you argue on moral grounds when I’ve said from the beginning I’m not morally opposed to polygamy and all the reasons I’ve given for why I don’t see gay marriage leading to polygamy and why I don’t thing polygamy would get legalized have all been anything but moral reasons. Why? To waste both of our time?

  23. Morals are an interesting tactic, but I don’t see that working to convince a legislature. Why not? Those are just the tactics used for allowing same-sex marriage, abortion and other things. Heck morals get argued in Congress all the time.

    Anyway, you don’t think same-sex marriage leads to polygamy being legalized. I do. Seems very clear to me. That’s OK. And you don’t really have a problem with polygamy being legal if I grokked you.

    Now all I gotta do is get to my Congressman, and get the bill through. Then find a second, third, etc wife.

  24. Morals not good because:
    • Morals are why it was made illegal in the first place I think
    • Morals mean convincing a majority, whereas a legal argument could win despite the wishes of an opposed majority

  25. But the legal code of any land is simply the codification of the morals of the society. All laws derive from moral ideas. E.g., don’t steal, don’t cheat, don’t beat people up, and so on.
    All laws derive from moral precepts.

  26. @Leopardus: The restrictions on marriage are few: consanguinity, number, sex. The case against the restriction based on sex is different from the case against restriction based on number. Eliminating the sex restriction does not alter marriage legally at all. It is still a two-person union of persons who are legally equal before the law. Such wasn’t the case before women’s suffrage was recognized, but it is now.

    The restrictions based on number and consanguinity must be addressed on their own merits. The restriction based on number would, in fact, create an entire new set of case law that our legal system is not yet able to handle. This is not to say that it shouldn’t be done–challenge the number restriction–only that it’s rationale and implications are entirely different than the restriction based on sex.

    The fundamental question for multiple-partner marriages is: are you marrying one or more partners? If you marry all, but then only want to divorce one, how shall the state recognize your marriage legally? Should you be forced to divorce all if you divorce one? How does this impact your rights of free association? If there are children, are all partners legally recognized as parents and in the case of divorce obligated to pay child support? If there is disagreement about a medical decision with respect to one’s spouses or children, whose rights are prioritized and why?

    There are many issues that surround the elimination of the number restriction. Again, this is not to say that the restriction based on number shouldn’t be eliminated, only that it must be thought through and that the case to be made is different from the elimination of the sex restriction. PhillyChief is correct in saying that putting forth your case to eliminate the number restriction must include a full(er) understanding of the changes that would be effected in our laws.

    The restriction based on consanguinity is commonly thought of as being based on genetics and the promotion of recessive traits. This is in part true, but not the sole justification for the restriction. It would likely take several generations for recessive physically-disadvantageous traits to reveal themselves. The larger problem involves the structure of the kinship ties, which become convoluted and disadvantageous to the family unit when incestuous relationships occur. Just as important, legally, is the issue of consent. If the restriction based on consanguinity were eliminated, one could never be certain that a parent didn’t train (i.e., brainwash) their child from an early age to become their spouse. We could never be certain that the entry into the legal contract of marriage was freely consented to by the child.

    Comparing the marriages of same-sex couples, multiple-partners, and within-family members is fallacious because each is based on a different type of restriction that must be argued on their own merits. Justification for the elimination of one type of restriction cannot be the justification for eliminating the others.

  27. djsaab: I will still say that the reason for changing the number restriction is one of fairness. True it may be more legally convoluted, but complexity is hardly a reason to override fairness. Joe, Bob, and Sue are in love and want a life-long commitment to one another. Why be unfair to them and only be “fair” to Joe and Bob (or Joe and Sue, or Bob and Sue)?

    A comment on the reason for prohibition on consanguinity: You got the reason right (genetics), but it does not take several generations. One is all you need. There have been plenty of real-life incidences to demonstrate that. And of course nowadays, we know the genetics well enough to know why it only takes one generation. (My degrees are in biology, so I can explain it or reference it more if you want.)

  28. The reason for eliminating the number restriction may indeed be fairness from your perspective. However, the fact remains that the number restriction rests on an entirely different set of justifications than does the sex restriction.

    The reason for eliminating the sex restriction isn’t fairness, per se, but rather equal protection of the laws. As far as the law is concerned, there is no inequality between the sexes, and marriage does not change because of the elimination of the sex restriction. Case law with respect to divorce, division of property, etc. remains in effect. Not so with the number restriction.

    What you or I consider to be “fair” isn’t the standard for our collectively deciding to eliminate the number restriction. We have a legal system that has been created to adjudicate such issues. The complexity of multiple-partner marriages and their dissolution makes the elimination of the number restriction a more difficult mountain to scale legally. In terms of our legal system, it is not simply a case of “fairness,” but of case law and precedent. We have only the Reynolds decision as precedent to rely upon when arguing for multiple-partner marriages.

    I think that if you sincerely believe that the number restriction should be eliminated, you and your partners should file suit challenging the restriction. That’s how the sex restriction was finally eliminated (in some states)–same sex couples challenged the sex restriction in court to have their existing marriages legally recognized. I will support your right to make that challenge to the number restriction. In fact, I encourage you to make it. If you do not have legal standing to make the challenge, then this conversation is moot.

    As to consanguinity, my point wasn’t that it necessarily takes several generations for recessive traits to manifest. Such traits can manifest without consanguinity, just as they can in the first generation. I meant to say that compared to non-consanguinous unions the manifestation of recessive traits are of higher probability and approach near certainty after several generations.

  29. Chief:A fair summary.

  30. If I may, this debate is pointless for everything boils down to explaining all that would have to be addressed to accommodate polygamy and Leopardus replying that he doesn’t care because it’s about fairness.

    Thanks for your input, djsaab.

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